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Topic: Banned from the LB Community Forum (Read 7081 times) |
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AAW
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #4 on: Mar 4th, 2015, 10:51am » |
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Richard, I respectfully request that you refrain from making accusations and assumptions regarding actions and motives of other people. Your claims regarding the reason for your ban are not true.
In fact, I have attempted to manipulate things so that you could continue to be a member.
I would prefer not to explain this in public. I would very much like to spare you any embarrassment. I would also like to avoid assigning motives to your actions which may or may not be true (as you have done to me and the LB forum staff.)
As always, you are welcome to contact me via email. I'm sure if you review our past communications (few though they may be) you will find that I have always treated you kindly, politely and respectfully. This I do in our interactions both public and private.
Perhaps we can solve this amicably.
-Alyce
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Jack Kelly
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #5 on: Mar 4th, 2015, 8:48pm » |
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Richard,
Thank you for the new release of LBB. Everything I have tried so far has worked just fine on my system. I appreciate the improvements to the IDE, and I look forward to learning and trying OOP as time allows. Right now I must admit that it is a complete mystery to me, but I'll accept your word that OOP is the modern way. I also truly appreciate the privilege and honor of having such direct access to you and your expertise. I realize that this open access must come at a high cost to you in terms of your time and sanity. I think it is most important that you enjoy your retirement and allow LBB to be a source of pleasure for you, not angst. We are grateful for anything you can do.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #6 on: Mar 5th, 2015, 9:44pm » |
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You will have realised by now that I have decided to abandon LBB. It was a difficult decision to take, and I know it will be a disappointment to some, but what it came down to in the end is that for over three years I have been hated by several members of the LB community, and I don't like it. 
I have been fortunate to have had a fairly successful career and led a fairly quiet personal life, during which I haven't (I hope) acquired too many enemies. Now in retirement I have tried to keep my brain active by continuing to engage in software-writing activities; in that respect LBB has been both challenging and satisfying.
But what I don't need or want at this time of life is to know that a group of people despise me. I have tried to keep the emotional impact under control by telling myself that their hatred is unjustified - and I do genuinely believe that it is - but when it has practical everyday consequences such as preventing me from even reading the LB forum as a guest it becomes impossible to block out.
Accordingly I am going to cut my ties with Liberty BASIC. I do not at this stage propose to shut down the web site or forums, and nor do I intend to remove the LBB download; doing that would unnecessarily inconvenience people and provide no benefit to me.
However from now on I will not be monitoring those forums nor providing any online support for LBB. Of course if I receive a personal email I will reply to the best of my ability - anything else would be discourteous - so anybody wanting support may contact me that way if they wish. I would prefer not to be contacted by anybody connected with the LB Community Forum.
Goodbye.
Richard.
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Alincon
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #7 on: Mar 6th, 2015, 2:22pm » |
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You left too soon, Richard.
They are saying good things about LBB over on the LB board.
I find it hard to believe that anyone there hates you
Please reconsider abandoning us.
r.m.
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CirothUngol
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Odie, Odie, cha cha cha.
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #8 on: Mar 11th, 2015, 01:31am » |
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Mention of LBBooster has always been banned on the Liberty Basic and Just Basic Forums. I was immediately chastised and had my topic deleted when I tried to tell people about it three years ago. *sigh*
Right then I realized that the LB Forums weren't necessarily there to help users. How many users would LBBooser have helped over the last few years? How many of you reading this right now wish you'd have known about it for the last three years?
It was then that I (nearly) stopped paying attention to those forums. LBB was such a fantastic application that it not only successfully compiled my largest program (over 5000 lines) with very little modification the first time I ever used it (ver 1.x, I can't remember), but it also reduced it to a 300Kb executable that was at least 6 times faster! I wanted the entire Liberty Basic world to know of it's existence, but was brutally stymied in my attempts (incidently, I originally discovered LBB from LB's Wikipedia page).
I love what Carl has created. Just Basic was a excellent panacea for my personal middle-aged programming woes when I discovered it many years ago. I love the simple manner in which the GUI elements are created and manipulated. It was, without a doubt, the easiest and quickest way for me to create the Windoze apps that I desired using a programming paradigm that I happen to be implicitly familiar with (been doin' the BASIC thang since the early '80s).
I hate that it has come to this. I don't even know really what's going on (as stated, I don't pay attention to the LB Forums), but I can tell that it's not good. I hate that Richard, a guy who has freely produced what is easily the best Liberty Basic extension in existence, feels so maligned that he has decided to forsake what is apparently his favorite pet-project. Damn, that hurts.
However, I will reiterate what I initially posted in these forums years ago. Even if Richard chooses to stop development of LBBooster, every single Liberty Basic user will eventually find out about it, and every single one of them will choose to use it because...
It's much, much faster.
It produces tiny, stand-alone executables.
It has a better debugger.
It has a better IDE (when coupled with LB Workshop).
It fixes many of the GUI and syntax bugs in LB 4.x
It's complete and working software.
It's absolutely free.
I purchased a software bundle from Carl that included an upgrade to Liberty Basic 5 "when it was released". That was four years ago. Believe me when I say that even if it ever gets released I won't bother to install it. The whole lack of affinity for the true well-being of their end-users really put me off, and I've remained silent about it until now. I understand that the LB forums perceived LBBooster as a threat and wanted to protect their market, I just don't respect it because I feel that they did so at the expense of their users. Besides, I seriously doubt that it will work any better than LBBooster does already.
Richard's LBBooster is a threat to Liberty Basic not only because of it's aforementioned improvements, but also because of the simple fact that it's better at interpreting Carl's Liberty Basic dialect than Liberty Basic 4.x itself.
Hey, someone needed to say it.
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LB Booster + LB Workshop + LB Builder = My Programs on Google Drive
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Alincon
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #9 on: Mar 12th, 2015, 2:50pm » |
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Richard said he would reply to personal emails as the courteous thing to do. I did send him an email in the spirit of "all is forgiven, please come back!", but have not received a reply.
Has anyone else tried emailing him?
If we all did, would it make a difference?
r.m.
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Jack Kelly
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #10 on: Mar 12th, 2015, 3:21pm » |
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I think we should all leave him alone for the time being. If nothing else, he probably needs a break from LBB for a while. He will read the forum posts when he's ready.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #11 on: Mar 13th, 2015, 1:08pm » |
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Just a temporary return here to give me a chance to reply to Alyce's latest claims, since I am unable to do so on her forum:
Quote:| If you read Richard's own words above, you will find that he knew we were blocking him from sending private messages and his response was to make new accounts to get around this block. He knew he was acting against our wishes and he used devious methods to get his way. |
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I have always been completely open and honest about the fact that I created new accounts at the LB forum in order to bypass the block on sending private messages.
Quote:| I received many complaints from people he contacted privately |
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Never have I been contacted directly (or indirectly) about such 'complaints'. Without exception the few private messages I sent were directly relevant to an issue the OP had raised on the forum, typically suggesting that using LBB might be a solution. I find it hard to understand how anybody could have any objections to such a communication; I wonder if Alyce challenged them on the validity of their complaints.
Quote:| I attempted to contact him privately to resolve this. He did not reply. He writes that he did not receive my messages. |
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I did not, and frankly I am doubtful that they were sent since as far as I know all my email addresses have been working at all times, and I am always careful to check my junk mailboxes etc.
Quote:| I joined his forum to attempt to contact him that way. I requested that he email me so that we could discuss it privately and "we can solve this amicably". If you read his words above, you'll see that he saw that message and chose to ignore it. |
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Certainly I saw that message (it is still visible here). You will note that it says "As always, you are welcome to contact me via email." which is by no stretch of the imagination a "request" that I contact her: it simply confirms that, should I wish to, I can. Since by that stage I had already been banned from the LB forum I had no wish to.
Quote:| Richard refers to the forum's rules. The first rule listed is, "This forum exists for the promotion and discussion of the Liberty BASIC language. Other programming languages may not be promoted here." That is exactly what he was doing when he was promoting LBB. |
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LB Booster is not "another" programming language - it is an alternative implementation of the Liberty BASIC language, in exactly the same way that there are alternative implementations of C (e.g. GCC and Visual C) and of Pascal and of BBC BASIC etc. It is ridiculous to claim that the rule quoted above applies to LBB.
Quote:| Carl is an outstanding individual who always treats others kindly, respectfully and fairly. |
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The implication here appears to be that I do not. I vigorously deny that, and I would challenge Alyce to present any evidence that I have ever behaved in an unkind, disrespectful or unfair way towards anybody.
Quote:| We are sorry that we must do so now, but this is our first and last post on this subject. |
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Note that once again Alyce has banned me before posting her message, making it impossible for me to reply to her false allegations. She even appears to have blocked the IP address of the anonymous web proxy which I was previously using to access the forum as a guest.
Quote:| Richard is banned for repeated misuse of the private messaging system to promote his competing product and for ignoring my attempt(s) to contact him to resolve the issue. |
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I find it very strange that only a few days ago Alyce posted at her forum that discussion of LBB there was now allowed; a very welcome and encouraging change of stance. I wonder what has gone on behind the scenes to trigger this U-turn.
Richard.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #12 on: Mar 14th, 2015, 10:51am » |
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Stefan posted this on the LB forum:
Quote:| LBB is not a different implementation of LB, it is a translator. LBB uses the LB syntax and language to convert it into BBC BASIC for Windows. |
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If you apply that argument, GCC is not an implementation of the C language, because it translates the C into assembler code. Similarly VB.NET is not an implementation of the Visual BASIC language because it translates the BASIC to CLR bytecode, and Jython is not an implementation of the Python language because it translates the Python to Java!
It's not relevant how a compiler works 'under the hood'; if it accepts Liberty BASIC source code as input and generates a runnable executable as output it is an implementation of the Liberty BASIC language.
Richard.
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lancegary
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #13 on: Mar 14th, 2015, 9:48pm » |
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on Mar 14th, 2015, 10:51am, Richard Russell wrote:Stefan posted this on the LB forum:
If you apply that argument, GCC is not an implementation of the C language, because it translates the C into assembler code. Similarly VB.NET is not an implementation of the Visual BASIC language because it translates the BASIC to CLR bytecode, and Jython is not an implementation of the Python language because it translates the Python to Java!
It's not relevant how a compiler works 'under the hood'; if it accepts Liberty BASIC source code as input and generates a runnable executable as output it is an implementation of the Liberty BASIC language.
Richard. |
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Hmm. The original LB also has a odd relationship with Smalltalk. But Mr Russell, why do you worry so much what these people think or say? The very small mindedness of their actions, and their self serving rationalisations of their pettiness should speak for themselves. They are not impartial judges of your work, and you should not let their inability to handle your exposure of the inferiority of their product and the hollowness of their promises of improvement as expressed in their vindictive ostracism of all who dare utter the name LBB, take away your peace of mind. It is precisely because your work is so good that they are so angry. In Shakespeare's terms, they protest too much...
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Mystic
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #14 on: Mar 17th, 2015, 7:20pm » |
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Due to the "conversation" on the LB forums I found your wonderful version!
After installing it and briefly checking things out it would be a great tragedy for you not to continue support for LBB.
This community would truly loose a fantastic tool!
Please reconsider and ignore disgruntled folks. Bask in your success, and not the failure of others.
Thanks!!!
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- Rick
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Richey
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #15 on: Mar 17th, 2015, 10:23pm » |
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on Mar 17th, 2015, 7:20pm, Mystic wrote:Due to the "conversation" on the LB forums I found your wonderful version!
After installing it and briefly checking things out it would be a great tragedy for you not to continue support for LBB.
This community would truly loose a fantastic tool!
Please reconsider and ignore disgruntled folks. Bask in your success, and not the failure of others.
Thanks!!! |
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The irony is that it is called 'Liberty BASIC' and yet there seems to be a concerted effort on the LB Community Forum to limit the free discussion of LBB and its benefits for LB users, which is detrimental to users interests.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #16 on: Mar 20th, 2015, 12:35am » |
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Once again I find myself having to use this forum to respond to comments posted at the LB Community Forum, where I am banned.
Rod Bird wrote:
Quote:| There is an implied assumption that we have campaigned against Richard and that we have all actively hounded him out of the forum. In fact we have been actively trying to include him in the forum, wishing he would support LB, which he has done in the past and rather well. |
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That is a straw man argument. Mystic didn't say that I had been "hounded out of the forum" he said the LB community were "blocking any attempt of this person trying to share their hard work" which is the case.
Quote:| Richard has self excluded himself from this forum more than once, simply because he does not get his own way. |
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The truth is that, about a year ago, I requested that discussion of LBB on the forum be permitted. Alyce apparently consulted with the other senior staff members and the change of policy was agreed. However I was then informed that Carl had vetoed the proposal; on that basis I decided that I couldn't remain a member.
Quote:| This is a LB forum and needs to stay focused on that software. LBB is awesome and a great achievement but there are quite substantial differences and it needs its own forum. |
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The "differences" Rod refers to are of course in nearly every case a functionality which LBB has that LB4 hasn't, or something which works properly in LBB but doesn't in LB4 because of a bug. The great majority of programs which run in LB 4.04 run perfectly in LBB with no modifications. Therefore I cannot see any valid argument for not allowing LBB to be mentioned at a forum intended to support users of the Liberty BASIC language.
Quote:| To think that they can work together is naive since LB is based on Smalltalk and LBB, on BBC BASIC, so neither author understands each others system or constraints. |
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I think Carl should be allowed to speak for himself. From a technical standpoint it would, in principle, be entirely possible for a 'hybrid' product to be developed. For example I could incorporate some of LBB's technology in a DLL, which could be called from SmallTalk in exactly the way the existing LB4 calls its custom DLLs. This approach could substantially solve the problem Carl has with LB5, in that his tools vendor has discontinued support for native GUI widgets; LBB (or more precisely the LBLIB library) could provide that support.
Quote:| I postulate this scenario, I build an exact replica of a Ferrari that can run at ten times the speed of a real Ferrari. I then roll it in to a Ferrari showroom and say "hey I want to promote this car here and I want to give it away, not just this one but as many as I can give away" |
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I would say that's a poor analogy. The LB Community Forum isn't like a showroom for Liberty BASIC; its primary purpose isn't to attract custom for Carl. Rather it is (or should be) providing support for existing users of the language, whether that be Carl's implementation or mine. How many people have given up on Liberty BASIC entirely because Carl's version is so slow and bug-ridden? How many might still be using it today if they had discovered LBB earlier?
Richard.
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Mystic
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #17 on: Mar 20th, 2015, 12:44am » |
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on Mar 20th, 2015, 12:35am, Richard Russell wrote: How many people have given up on Liberty BASIC entirely because Carl's version is so slow and bug-ridden? How many might still be using it today if they had discovered LBB earlier?
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Definitely agree with this one! I'm running into the same mess with a CMS I use.
It's frustrating that things with great potential are stifled due to poor vision.
Don't get me started on the Amiga! LOL
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- Rick
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Mystic
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #18 on: Mar 20th, 2015, 12:56am » |
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From LB Forums
Alyce wrote on the LB forums
Quote:LBB may be mentioned here, but not promoted. We believe that is an amicable solution and we have tried to work this out with Richard for four years.
Richard is an amazingly talented programmer, and I wish him well.
If LBB is mentioned, we will point folks to Richard's forum for discussion.
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At least that means LBB can be discussed in front of others and still attract potential users.
I'm sure they will watch carefully and draw a fine line between "mention" and anything else.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2015, 12:58am by Mystic » |
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- Rick
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