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Topic: Winding down LBB (Read 6405 times) |
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Core
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #5 on: Feb 26th, 2014, 01:25am » |
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on Feb 25th, 2014, 2:50pm, Richard Russell wrote:| Without access to the membership of that forum, or the LB Yahoo group, it is impossible to 'spread the word' about LBB - the vast majority of Liberty BASIC users don't know it exists and never will. |
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I came across LBB via a Google search while researching LB stuff.
on Feb 25th, 2014, 2:50pm, Richard Russell wrote:| Therefore it seems a disproportionate use of my time to put a lot of effort into developing LBB, when the number of users is likely to remain tiny (the membership of this forum currently standing at 45 compared with 5660 on the LB forum!). |
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But, out of the 5660 I would gamble that 5600 are just dead accounts, compared to other forums its dead in there, including the Run Basic Forum.
on Feb 25th, 2014, 2:50pm, Richard Russell wrote:So my intention is to release one more major update to LBB, which I anticipate being within the next week or so, but thereafter to wind down development. If serious bugs are reported I will fix them (if possible) but otherwise it is unlikely that any more significant enhancements will take place.
Sorry if this is a disappointment, but after more than two years LBB has failed to make any significant inroads into the LB user base, and there's little point flogging a dead horse.
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Are you assuming that all users of LBB are registered members of this forum? or are you tracking the Downloads from your page. I have been using LBB for all final .exe however I just registered to reply to this post.
Question: What was your original intentions with LBB? As far as I see you dont appear to be making a profit from it as its free. Having said that, what would be the difference if 50 people used it as opposed to 800 people?
-Joe
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| « Last Edit: Feb 26th, 2014, 01:26am by Core » |
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Richard Russell
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #6 on: Feb 26th, 2014, 06:46am » |
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on Feb 26th, 2014, 01:25am, Core wrote:| Are you assuming that all users of LBB are registered members of this forum? or are you tracking the Downloads from your page. |
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No, my figures were deliberately exaggerated to make the point. The Yahoo! LBB group has 128 members but I have no way of knowing the actual number of users.
Quote:| What was your original intentions with LBB? |
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I was frustrated by Liberty BASIC being bug-ridden, bloated and incredibly slow; LBB was my attempt to provide a solution. It was also an interesting challenge and a good demonstration of the power and flexibility of BBC BASIC.
Quote:| what would be the difference if 50 people used it as opposed to 800 people? |
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None whatsoever from a money point of view, that isn't my motivation. But I often have to choose whether to spend my time working on BBC BASIC or working on LBB, for example. The number of users is a factor in making that decision.
Richard.
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Phineas Freak
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #7 on: Feb 26th, 2014, 08:18am » |
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on Feb 25th, 2014, 2:50pm, Richard Russell wrote:| As time goes on, increasing numbers of people are going to be caught out by LB 4.04's incompatibility with touchscreen PCs, and the DEP issue could become a problem as more PCs have it fully enabled by default. |
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And that is a perfect opportunity for LBB to shine and show it's capabilities. Developing with and within "vanilla" LB for the newer Windows OS's or writing complex programs is a major PITA. Addons like LBW don't help either since it is the nature of the current version of LB that holds us back. LBB on the other hand can help overcome these limitations.
I believe that developing LBB to include the features that were previously discussed (http://lbb.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=suggestions&action=display&num=1389201278) would help even more LB users to use it.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #8 on: Feb 26th, 2014, 08:52am » |
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on Feb 26th, 2014, 08:18am, PreciseTiming wrote:| I believe that developing LBB to include the features that were previously discussed would help even more LB users to use it. |
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As I said, I plan to release one more major version quite soon; it will have some new features from that list.
But I think we need to be realistic. What reason is there to think that the rate of take-up of LBB, which has been extremely slow in the more than two years since its release, is likely to pick up?
There are a whole load of reasons why very few Liberty BASIC programmers use LBB:
Not knowing it exists; I suspect that is true of a surprisingly large number.
Loyalty to Carl; one potential user of LBB told me he felt guilty about using a free product when he'd paid for LB.
'Not invented here' syndrome; some LB users place a high premium on the home-grown-American nature of LB (the clue is in its name and logo!).
Better the devil you know: LB has many bugs and other quirks, but once users have got used to them and found workarounds they don't want to have to tweak their code to run in LBB (even if it's rarely necessary).
Distrust of LBB's 'provenance'; some people see LBB as a 'toy' product developed by an amateur, whilst LB is seen as 'professional'. As a Chartered Engineer with decades of experience in designing hardware and software systems I naturally don't agree, but you can't easily fight people's perceptions. Richard.
M.A. C.Eng. M.I.E.T. 
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net2014
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #9 on: Feb 26th, 2014, 09:36am » |
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on Feb 26th, 2014, 08:52am, Richard Russell wrote:There are a whole load of reasons why very few Liberty BASIC programmers use LBB:
Not knowing it exists; I suspect that is true of a surprisingly large number. |
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True, I knew nothing of LBB till late 2013
Quote:| Loyalty to Carl; one potential user of LBB told me he felt guilty about using a free product when he'd paid for LB. |
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Illogical, the paid for app is still being used to generate code and long-time users would continue to use it; LBB does its enhancement tricks. In fact more LB customers would be attracted if they knew that a free enhancement enabled generation of a (mostly) single exe application. I realise that the astute could migrate to BBC4W but most hobby programmers who had become proficient with LB will stick with LB. Carl I think is missing an opportunity to keep LB4 ticking along for a while yet. Too many people are put off by the announcement of LB5 back in 2005 and it is still to see the light of day now well into 2014.
And I appreciate the fact that LBB is free, even after extensive unpaid development work. Thank you Richard.
Quote:| Not invented here' syndrome; some LB users place a high premium on the home-grown-American nature of LB (the clue is in its name and logo!). |
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I thought Americans worshipped UK goods >
Quote:| Better the devil you know: LB has many bugs and other quirks, but once users have got used to them and found workarounds they don't want to have to tweak their code to run in LBB (even if it's rarely necessary). |
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Quote:Distrust of LBB's 'provenance'; some people see LBB as a 'toy' product developed by an amateur, whilst LB is seen as 'professional'. As a Chartered Engineer with decades of experience in designing hardware and software systems I naturally don't agree, but you can't easily fight people's perceptions.Richard.
M.A. C.Eng. M.I.E.T. |
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Illogical again, but I don't know where that idea comes from.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #10 on: Feb 26th, 2014, 11:39am » |
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on Feb 26th, 2014, 09:36am, net2014 wrote:
If everybody behaved logically the world would be a better place.
Richard.
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tsh73
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #11 on: Feb 27th, 2014, 08:25am » |
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Just logged on to say thanks to Richard.
Yes I think main reason for low user numbers is "Not knowing it exists".
And it's a moderators' - I would not say "fault" - but consequence of moderators' position.
Really, for the common good, LBB should be linked just from a forum firstpage (right along with links to WIKI).
IMHO of course.
(btv another reason for people not registering might be fact that it *just works*. Not that bad reason )
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flotulopex
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #12 on: Feb 27th, 2014, 10:36am » |
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It will take time until LBB gets more known, more popular, but like all other "good" products, it will get its reward, everyday a little more.
I'm am not a programming specialist and still found in LBB extraordinary tool to enhance LB4. Other people go/went the same way I do/did, for sure.
Most probably, for "political" or "loyalty" reasons, some of LB4 programmers can not admit they use your program - these ones will never show up in your LBB user's count.
Don't stop your great work
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Roger
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Richard Russell
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #13 on: Feb 27th, 2014, 3:48pm » |
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on Feb 27th, 2014, 08:25am, tsh73 wrote:| Really, for the common good, LBB should be linked just from a forum firstpage (right along with links to WIKI). |
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That would be nice. Perhaps you should suggest it to the forum's owner! Sadly, I expect Carl has a veto on that too.
Richard.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #14 on: Feb 27th, 2014, 3:51pm » |
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on Feb 27th, 2014, 10:36am, flotulopex wrote:| It will take time until LBB gets more known |
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Isn't two-years-and-four-months long enough?! It seems to me that if LBB is still not well known after that length of time, it probably never will be. 
Richard.
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flotulopex
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #15 on: Feb 28th, 2014, 1:59pm » |
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Hum...
Everybody who has once tried LBB will not stop using it!
Still the problem is not solved about LBB's publicity and there are none so deaf as those who will not hear - if these people "refuse" to take that chance, who cares....
Everyday, new people look for a BASIC programming language. Why would people choose LB4 or any other similar language instead of BBC then?
When I was looking around the net, one year ago, about finding the (imo) "simplest possible" programming language, if found BBC and also LB4. I finally decided to go for LB4 because:
- LB4 looks a little bit closer to DB3/CLIPPER I was using 30 years ago;
- the better appearance of syntax and the language's command words;
- the overall aspect of the web site;
- the very small effort I had to make to find several comprehensive and simple code samples;
- the importance of the community (forum, Wiki);
- the tools (IDE) I wouldn't have to "provide" by myself.
The price was absolutely not an argument.
What about making BBC more "sexy"?
Your idea about making a powerful editor, debugger and more is just great. Newcomers love to be cocooned
Make all that "attractive" and I'm sure you'll have new adepts ;-)
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Roger
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Richard Russell
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #16 on: Mar 1st, 2014, 09:30am » |
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on Feb 26th, 2014, 08:52am, Richard Russell wrote:There are a whole load of reasons why very few Liberty BASIC programmers use LBB:
Not knowing it exists...
Loyalty to Carl...
'Not invented here' syndrome...
Better the devil you know...
Distrust of LBB's 'provenance'... |
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Another, indirect, reason for the poor take-up of LBB is that Liberty BASIC's functionality is so often inaccurately documented, incompletely documented or not documented at all! To give an extreme example, the char[n] structure type, so vital to accessing some Windows APIs, is as far as I know not mentioned anywhere in the official LB docs!
This means that anybody trying to write a 'clone' of LB 4.04 has no reliable specification to work towards. This contrasts with a language like C which has a formal specification that should, in principle, allow a fully compatible implementation to be developed. Much of the functionality which LBB needs to emulate has been discovered by trial-and-error or, frequently, by an incompatibility being reported to me by a user.
It is human nature that somebody trying LBB for the first time, and encountering an incompatibility of this kind, is likely to give up and return to using LB, rather than going to the trouble of reporting it to me. If they did report it I would quite likely be able to offer a compatible workaround, or fix the issue in LBB at short notice.
I don't know how to overcome this, other than to emphasise that reports of incompatibility are always welcome, and are indeed an important way that LBB gets improved.
Richard.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #17 on: Mar 1st, 2014, 2:28pm » |
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on Feb 25th, 2014, 8:31pm, net2014 wrote:| I needed a Linux version of LB5 but I think that is impracticable now. |
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I am looking for somebody to take on the task of porting BBC BASIC for Windows to Linux, which would be a first step towards porting LBB to Linux. If you know of anybody who might be interested in taking on that task, or at least helping with it, perhaps you could put them in touch with me. They would need a good understanding of Linux internals (i.e. APIs) and be able to code in C and/or x86 assembler.
Of course even if BB4W were ported to Linux, that still leaves LBB with exactly the same difficulty as LB5 - support for GUI widgets! Both LB4 and LBB rely on native Windows widgets, but under Linux one would need to use something like WxWidgets or implement them from scratch as Carl has been attempting.
A version of LBB with GUI support from WxWidgets could in principle be platform-neutral across Windows/Linux/MacOSX, but we 'just' need to overcome that initial step of porting BB4W! I don't have the time, energy or inclination to do it myself, but I would be happy to provide somebody else with the necessary information and support.
Richard.
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Richey
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #18 on: Mar 2nd, 2014, 12:33am » |
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on Feb 28th, 2014, 1:59pm, flotulopex wrote:Hum...
Everybody who has once tried LBB will not stop using it!
Still the problem is not solved about LBB's publicity and there are none so deaf as those who will not hear - if these people "refuse" to take that chance, who cares....
Everyday, new people look for a BASIC programming language. Why would people choose LB4 or any other similar language instead of BBC then?
When I was looking around the net, one year ago, about finding the (imo) "simplest possible" programming language, if found BBC and also LB4. I finally decided to go for LB4 because:
- LB4 looks a little bit closer to DB3/CLIPPER I was using 30 years ago;
- the better appearance of syntax and the language's command words;
- the overall aspect of the web site;
- the very small effort I had to make to find several comprehensive and simple code samples;
- the importance of the community (forum, Wiki);
- the tools (IDE) I wouldn't have to "provide" by myself.
The price was absolutely not an argument.
What about making BBC more "sexy"?
Your idea about making a powerful editor, debugger and more is just great. Newcomers love to be cocooned
Make all that "attractive" and I'm sure you'll have new adepts ;-) |
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BB4W does nor need to become any more "attractive". It is by far a more capable language than LB. It has an established pedigree having been around since the 1980s and has been developed since then by Richard into a powerful and flexible language. It produces small and fast standalone exec's and is (as far as any software can be) bug free. Its graphics capabilities are outstanding and its IDE is far superior to that provided by LB.
The only advantages that LB offers over BB4W that I can see and the only reason why I give any of my time to LB are:
1) easier GUI programming. In LB, GUI programming is built into the language and it is really easy to use whereas you have to use libraries with BB4W. However, this is one of the reasons why LB produces such slow and bloated execs and why LBB is so useful.
2) larger, more active and supportive (if tightly controlled) community along with extensive learning materials; although BB4W comes with a good tutorial and documentation that is comprehensive and second to none (plus there is lots of older BBC BASIC material out there and it is compatible with BB4W).
Actually, I suspect the reason why LB is more 'popular' than BB4W is more to do with the fact that it is (one of) the language used in 'Beginning Programming for Dummies' and 'Programming for the Absolute Beginner' books.
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CryptoMan
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Re: Winding down LBB
« Reply #19 on: Mar 2nd, 2014, 9:32pm » |
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It will be very bad if you stopped LBB or you are not participating in LB Forum.
I believe LBB has an important place in the LB world. Each has it's better parts. Initial writing and debugging is easier on LB. However, once it is written I prefer to compile it and run it with LBB because one single EXE without any other files to bundle with.
Furthermore, my code which gives problems in TKN form has no problems properly running as LBB compiled EXE.
I have tried and actively using LBB and am very happy with it. I would love to see it evolving.
I also used the forum but because it was not forcing any registeration i did not register until now..
If you look at LB forum you will see that nothing much is really happening. Some topics are not updated for months and years. Some of the most important and useful contributions are your contributions in LB forum.
I think anyone who works seriously with LB knows LBB and it is one of the most useful tools for LB. i wish LB adapts some of LBB's features like INCLUDE statements and better USING formats.
I believe that LBB should be part of LBB in that it becomes the compile to EXE option and TKN format is scrapped. INCLUDE should be part of LB and a multiple source code tabs like Notepad+ is implemented.
So. I wish that you change your mind and keep up the good work.
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