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LBB for Linux and Mac OS?
Post by Richard Russell on Oct 30th, 2016, 11:43am

As you probably know, over the last year I have been developing versions of BBC BASIC for Linux (86) and Mac OS-X. LBB works by translating the Liberty BASIC program to BBC BASIC, so it should be easy to make Linux and Mac OS versions of LBB, right? Sadly no!

The problem stems from the GUI features of LB (windows, controls, sprites) which are actually native Windows features made available via a thin 'wrapper'. This is why STYLEBITS accepts Windows Constants, they are sent straight to Windows.

So whilst I could quite easily arrange for a non-GUI (and non-CALLDLL) Liberty BASIC program to run in Linux or Mac OS, GUI programs won't. I have always concluded that porting LBB to those Operating Systems would be pointless, but is that right?

Maybe there would be some value in being able to run non-GUI JB or LB programs in other OSes. Perhaps it would even be possible to emulate some of the GUI features sufficiently closely to be worthwhile (this is what Carl has been attempting in LB5, after all).

What say you? Is this something worth pursuing or not?

Richard.
Re: LBB for Linux and Mac OS?
Post by net2014 on Oct 30th, 2016, 4:48pm

on Oct 30th, 2016, 11:43am, Richard Russell wrote:
Maybe there would be some value in being able to run non-GUI JB or LB programs in other OSes. Perhaps it would even be possible to emulate some of the GUI features sufficiently closely to be worthwhile (this is what Carl has been attempting in LB5, after all).

What say you? Is this something worth pursuing or not?

Richard.


From my point of view as a linux convert, the answer is yes (or maybe, no). LBB runs ok (for me) under WINE since you long ago solved the only problem I experienced. So the status quo is ok by me, but I would obviously use a native linux version of LBB if one was available. I've no idea how many other linux users are around to make it worth your time. IMHO GUI generation would be pre-requisite as most computer users today rely on a windowing system.

Someone commented that in his opinion, LB is as good as dead (due to lack of support?) and LB5 a figment of the imagination (due to lack of appearance over around 11 years?), so any advancement of LBB is surely welcome!

Thank you for your continued support. smiley smiley
Re: LBB for Linux and Mac OS?
Post by Richard Russell on Oct 30th, 2016, 5:53pm

on Oct 30th, 2016, 4:48pm, net2014 wrote:
IMHO GUI generation would be pre-requisite as most computer users today rely on a windowing system.

I guess I was thinking about using LB or JB to do homework assignments, or to make quick calculations, or for various batch-processing tasks. None of those necessarily needs any GUI capability (other than the mainwin).

Once you ask for GUI features you have to decide what degree of incompatibility (and for sure it would be considerable) would be acceptable. I've not seen Carl's attempts at GUI emulation in LB5 but he faces the same problems.

It would perhaps be sensible to aim for a degree of compatibility with Just BASIC, because that doesn't have STYLEBITS and some of the other problematic features. But it would still be a major challenge to get close to what the native Windows controls do.

Quote:
Someone commented that in his opinion, LB is as good as dead (due to lack of support?) and LB5 a figment of the imagination

Presumably he doesn't know LBB exists. This is where I disagree so fundamentally with the Community Forum moderators: they are adamant that LBB damages Liberty BASIC, yet we have people like that claiming the language is dying who might well be more optimistic if they knew about LBB.

Richard.
Re: LBB for Linux and Mac OS?
Post by joker on Oct 30th, 2016, 7:33pm

Quote:
Maybe there would be some value in being able to run non-GUI JB or LB programs in other OSes.


Some value? Yes, but would it then not be lucrative for the professional? What kind of support would professionals expect? (I already know what kind they would get based on what I know about you on this forum, Richard.)

I used to could throw a nice program together under DOS in a week with documentation. All the screen writes were documented using fixed-width fonts. There was no reason for GUI, because we were only transferring data around; not trying to create a pretty picture/document.

Most of the time I've spent with LB/LBB is with the damn user interface; which is why I had to move into programs like Filemaker years ago that handled the GUI better than I could ever hope to.
Re: LBB for Linux and Mac OS?
Post by CirothUngol on Feb 17th, 2017, 02:04am

Well, this sounds promising.

If adding the ability to port non-GUI console programs to Linux/MacOS isn't problematic, then I would say it's worth it... but I'm not doing the work. ^_^ I tend to write console programs and love that you've included that natively into LBB.

However, having a simplistic GUI-based LB translator for Linux would be fantastic! Even without DLLs and STYLEBITS, JustBASIC was plenty workable the first few years I used it. If it had a weakness... you worked around it, same as with any language.

I've actually been playing with Ubuntu for the last couple of years, so I think it's wonderful that you're even considering any of this.
Re: LBB for Linux and Mac OS?
Post by Richard Russell on Feb 17th, 2017, 4:09pm

on Feb 17th, 2017, 02:04am, CirothUngol wrote:
If adding the ability to port non-GUI console programs to Linux/MacOS isn't problematic, then I would say it's worth it

At the moment I can't see it being a high enough priority for me to get around to it. I have been concentrating on porting BBC BASIC to new platforms, like Android and the Raspberry Pi. However that does raise the prospect of LBB (or something very like it) running on your mobile phone. smiley

Richard.
Re: LBB for Linux and Mac OS?
Post by mmiscool on Mar 6th, 2017, 05:37am

Just my 2 cents.

A linux version that supported the normal just basic gui stuf would be highly desired.

Re: LBB for Linux and Mac OS?
Post by Richard Russell on Mar 6th, 2017, 2:10pm

on Mar 6th, 2017, 05:37am, mmiscool wrote:
A linux version that supported the normal just basic gui stuf would be highly desired.

I'm sure, but as I've explained previously even the 'Just BASIC' subset of GUI features would be extremely difficult to emulate to a reasonable degree of accuracy. The JB/LB/LBB GUI is a 'thin wrapper' around the Windows GUI so it's by no means simple to reproduce it on another platform.

So it all comes down to how prepared people are to adapt their programs to the inevitable differences and simplifications that an emulated GUI would imply.

Richard.