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General >> General Board >> Umbrella forum http://lbb.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&num=1477410185 Umbrella forum
Post by Richard Russell on Oct 25th, 2016, 3:43pm
I see that over at the LB Community Forum Alyce is proposing the creation of an Umbrella forum "where multiple implementations of LB can be discussed".
For what it's worth I am very much in favour of such a forum, especially as Alyce says she would "be happy to include a link in the info box at the top of [her] forum". I would be happy to do the same here.
Richard. Re: Umbrella forum
Post by joker on Oct 26th, 2016, 03:11am
... and how would that be better than what there is now? Re: Umbrella forum
Post by tsh73 on Oct 26th, 2016, 11:37am
I dunno. Might as well work. for: - being neutral ground - placing common programming contests (long time no contests, really) - posting cool demos (graphic programs etc). With obvoius intention "if you like picture you can as well try it running" and "if it doesn't run, you might as well try to adapt to your language (and share)"
Re: Umbrella forum
Post by joker on Oct 26th, 2016, 2:51pm
I'm not at all sure about an amalgamated forum if we're already talking about neutrality.
Would you not expect questions such as "This works in LB but not in LBB. Why?" or vice versa?
Would this develop just as much segregation?
Re: Umbrella forum
Post by Richard Russell on Oct 26th, 2016, 5:31pm
Why is it different from any other language with multiple implementations? For example at a BBC BASIC forum there will be discussions about code that runs on all (or most) of the different versions, but there will also sometimes be discussions about differences between the implementations and how code needs to be adapted accordingly.
I don't see how this qualifies as "segregation", it's simply a recognition that with languages that don't have a formal specification the different implementations are bound to have some incompatibilities. Even for languages that do have a formal specification there will usually be differences in areas that the specification doesn't cover, such as compiler directives. There's nothing wrong with discussing those differences, surely?
Richard.
Re: Umbrella forum
Post by RNBW on Oct 26th, 2016, 6:10pm
The thread has been removed because the original poster (Jack Kelly) wants to rethink his ideas.
Re: Umbrella forum
Post by joker on Oct 26th, 2016, 7:48pm
Ah hah! Now we're back to normal ...
Re: Umbrella forum
Post by tsh73 on Oct 26th, 2016, 7:51pm
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Would you not expect questions such as "This works in LB but not in LBB. Why?" or vice versa?
I don't see a problem. These are in effect different programs. People are different, so are programs.
(may be because I don't actually attend it) I see http://retrogamecoding.org/board/ as an example of multi-language BASIC forum: folks use BASICs of personal choice, but share results - thus inspire translation to other dialects and other derivations.
Re: Umbrella forum
Post by Richard Russell on Oct 26th, 2016, 9:01pm
The thread has been removed because the original poster (Jack Kelly) wants to rethink his ideas.
I don't think it depends on Jack; if he doesn't want to set up the 'umbrella forum' presumably anybody perceived as being 'neutral' could do so instead. The important thing, it seems to me, is that the principle of such a forum, linked from the Community Forum, has been accepted.
Richard. Re: Umbrella forum
Post by joker on Oct 27th, 2016, 01:14am
Well, now. Who will be the principal of such a forum?
Who can be objective enough to not start editing and/or deleting and/or banning?
Well, let's see ... I vote Richard Russell because he hasn't done any of that here on this forum!
No that's not going to happen, so who will be the one in charge?
Re: Umbrella forum
Post by Richard Russell on Oct 27th, 2016, 07:22am
Well, if we're nominating people, my vote goes to Анатолий (tsh73), if he would be willing to do it. As a moderator at the LB Community Forum, but also a regular here and a LBB user, he would surely be a suitable 'neutral' candidate.
Richard. Re: Umbrella forum
Post by Jack Kelly on Oct 27th, 2016, 08:04am
Sorry folks, I've been sick for the past few days. It's been difficult to focus on threads and issues. But I have tried to give the idea of an umbrella forum some thought.
My first reaction is that I don't want to run it. It is true that my primary recreation right now is programming in Liberty BASIC using LBB. And I do try to check the current postings on both the LBB and LB Forums a few times a day. And it is true that I often reply in those threads where I feel I can contribute something. And I sometimes do start new threads as a spinoff from another thread. And it is true that I advocate a real Liberty BASIC Community where solutions on all compilers can be discussed with impunity.
That being said, my primary responsibility right now is to my family. There are eight people in our house -- four adults, and four children aged two to fourteen. It is most important that I be available to help them all as much as possible, and to do my share of the regular chores. It would not sit well with the family if I spent any more time on the PC.
My second reaction is that I don't think it would get many members or many postings. Wasn't the Bay Six Forum supposed to be an umbrella forum of a similar sort? That seems to be virtually inactive now -- a failed experiment perhaps? Neither the LB Forum or the LBB Forum currently get a large number of postings. And at least three-quarters of the postings on both forums are by moderators.
That doesn't bode well for yet another forum. But I suppose it wouldn't hurt to give it a try. We could always shut it down after a year or so if it's not proving useful. I would expect it to run by itself, and shouldn't need more than two moderators, just for the few housekeeping tasks. I could try to be one. Anatoly, would you be willing to be another -- if you're not already up to your ears?
It wouldn't need more two or three sections, with no restrictions. The only rule should be that there are no rules! Well maybe no sex or violence. The reason I had to respond to Alyce by PM is that the LB Snippets section doesn't allow replies by members. I had to start the contest thread there because the Contests section doesn't allow threads to be started by members. Too many rules and restrictions! I know the LB forum has nearly 6,000 members, but they don't realy seem to be all that active, much less troublesome. Re: Umbrella forum
Post by Richard Russell on Oct 27th, 2016, 08:38am
Wasn't the Bay Six Forum supposed to be an umbrella forum of a similar sort?
It was (is?) still very restrictive. I did get permission to mention LBB there, but only under limited conditions and I got into trouble on a couple of occasions.
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But I suppose it wouldn't hurt to give it a try. We could always shut it down after a year or so if it's not proving useful.
It just seems to me that it's an opportunity that shouldn't be squandered, especially as it was Alyce's own suggestion.
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The only rule should be that there are no rules! Well maybe no sex or violence.
If it's hosted by Conforums members are bound by their rules anyway. I expect any other forum hosting company would be the same.
Richard. Re: Umbrella forum
Post by net2014 on Oct 27th, 2016, 09:08am
I really don't see why the two existing forums can't co-exist peacefully. LBB complements LB very well and an umbrella forum will not 'hide' the fact that LBB exists so to me seems a pointless exercise to have yet another forum. Fogging the issue by having an intermediary will serve no purpose other than to annoy users even more. Carl seems to be very preoccupied with other things which put LB on the back burner and support is just muddling along.
Oh, I nearly forgot - Happy 5th, LBB!
So 'bang heads together' and keep the existing forums. Lets all be cyber friends. Re: Umbrella forum
Post by Richard Russell on Oct 27th, 2016, 09:34am
I really don't see why the two existing forums can't co-exist peacefully.
It's not so much an issue of "co-existence" but of 'cooperation'. The issue came up when Jack wanted to hold a programming contest to which LB, JB and LBB users could submit entries. At present there is no single place at which such a contest can be promoted, and to which such submissions can be made.
An 'umbrella forum' for the entire LB/JB/LBB family, acknowledged as legitimate by all three of the existing dialect-specific forums, would be such a place. Presumably it would be OK to post announcements to the other forums about contests and other activities there, since none of the rules would be broken in so doing.
Whilst there remains an absolute ban on mentioning LBB at the Community Forum, some neutral middle-ground seems like the best we can hope for, and I think the idea should be given a chance.
Richard.
Re: Umbrella forum
Post by joker on Oct 27th, 2016, 11:07am
So, let's take this step-by-step just to "cover all the bases" (a baseball sport reference).
Richard, strictly from your point of view, do you have any problem with the LBB forum (or a section of the forum) being this "umbrella" forum?
So, let's go to the next step.
Alyce, strictly from your point of view, do you have any problem with the LBB forum (or a section of the forum) being this "umbrella" forum?
Re: Umbrella forum
Post by Richard Russell on Oct 27th, 2016, 12:34pm
Richard, strictly from your point of view, do you have any problem with the LBB forum (or a section of the forum) being this "umbrella" forum?
It seems a pointless question since there's no possibility of that being acceptable to the other parties. It wouldn't be ideal anyway because the forum would need to be split into a 'LBB specific' section (at which language developments and bugs, for example, could be discussed) and an 'Umbrella' section for common LB/JB/LBB matters.
I've seen that kind of forum split elsewhere, but only to make the most efficient use of a 'paid for' forum host (a bit like the way I combined the BB4W and LBB wikis, to save on the Wikispaces subscription). But if the intention is to use Conforums for the umbrella forum it's free (funded by advertising) so that shouldn't be an issue.
Richard. Re: Umbrella forum
Post by Jack Kelly on Oct 28th, 2016, 5:59pm
Well, what do you say, Anatoly? You've been very quiet on this issue. Will you be co-administrator with me?
Re: Umbrella forum
Post by joker on Oct 29th, 2016, 10:34am
Jack and Anatoly, the "administration" will be easy ... delete some possible spam. I am not trying to be a "spoil sport", just a realist.
Are you ready (or is it even possible) to set ground rules (the "umbrella effect") that are both inclusive enough to make the forum interesting, but exclusive enough to keep someone from "stamping their feet" and leaving when the subject matter is objectionable to them? (I am guilty of the latter, since I haven't been active on the LB forum for my own reasons.)
If you don't accomplish this feat, what will be the point in the long run?
PS. The suspense is killing me! Re: Umbrella forum
Post by Richard Russell on Oct 29th, 2016, 3:00pm
Are you ready (or is it even possible) to set ground rules
The proposal was that the umbrella forum should have no formal rules (over and above what Conforums imposes). That's the case here, and on the other forums I administer, and IMHO it works well.
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exclusive enough to keep someone from "stamping their feet" and leaving
An umbrella forum would be open to be read by members and non-members alike. Whether somebody chooses to join or to leave, for whatever reason, is entirely their own business.
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If you don't accomplish this feat, what will be the point in the long run?
I've explained what I think the benefits are; you are entitled to disagree, but please don't attempt to sabotage the idea before it has even been tried.
Anatoly: if you prefer not to reply in the forum please PM me and/or Jack.
Richard. Re: Umbrella forum
Post by joker on Oct 29th, 2016, 7:40pm
Like I said before, no "sabotage" intended; just informed expectations.
Re: Umbrella forum
Post by tsh73 on Oct 30th, 2016, 06:30am
Re: quiet sometimes I miss the time and / or brainpower left
So. I just asked LB mods a few questions, will wait for answer If answers would came favourite I'am in. Anyway I'll write here as I get more information.
I have things I have to do but this is just too good not to try.
Re: no rules I dunno. in JB, rule about contests was introduced after folks started to put stuff in contest board like "please do my homework" or "please recreate my favourite game in JB" First is not interesting and second may not be possible at all So requirement was made to talk things up with moderator first and provide simple program showing hat something could be done / what to expect. Me thinks this is reasonable.
Re: contests Me thinks one of "LB Umbrella forum" main features could be language-agnostic (LB JB LBB, may be even RB, but I really have no idea about RB) contests. This is programmer's forum - source code is a must - but for ones who have no particular language (but wants to see/check), one should provide screenshots / build EXE? I think reasonable time frame is 2 weeks. May be 3, no more. Or folks will do it in last days left as any students always end up with There is seasonal events - Helloween we already missed, Christmas, some others(?) - themed contest better be announced before in same 2-3 weeks.
So we have one contest in back-burner - Jack and Rod sorting contents (Jack, do you have your post saved? And you probably need Rod's approval too) I was thinking all sort possible already implemented - but checking http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Reports:Tasks_not_implemented_in_Liberty_BASIC it looks like there more sorts I ever heard of.
I could suggest another one - graphic contest, inventing / drawing (may be animating to taste) forum logo. Re: Umbrella forum
Post by Jack Kelly on Oct 30th, 2016, 09:59am
Good to see you back, Anatoly. I truly appreciate your ideas, excitement, and enthusiasm. I'll hold off the rollout of the new forum until we hear back from you.
Jack
Re: Umbrella forum
Post by tsh73 on Oct 31st, 2016, 11:41pm
Sorry guys. I'm bad negotiator. LB forum mods does not want to link umbrella forum. I really doubt it will have sense without it.
Re: Umbrella forum
Post by Richard Russell on Nov 1st, 2016, 12:33am
Sorry guys. I'm bad negotiator. LB forum mods does not want to link umbrella forum. I really doubt it will have sense without it.
Personally I don't think it's essential that there be a 'permanent' link to the Umbrella Forum in the header, even though Alyce originally said she would be happy to do that. Who reads the forum headers anyway?
IMHO what is important is that announcements related to the Umbrella Forum can be posted at the Community Forum, so for example if Jack holds a contest it can be announced there. I don't see how anybody could object to such a post: it wouldn't break any of the forum rules and it was exactly what Alyce proposed in the first place!
Whatever happens, if in future I want to post some code that runs on JB, LB and LBB I will (with Jack's permission) do so at the Umbrella Forum rather than here.
Richard. Re: Umbrella forum
Post by Jack Kelly on Nov 1st, 2016, 07:36am
No one needs my permission to post anything on the Umbrella Forum. Code posted there should be that which is necessary to best solve a problem or illustrate a point.
There's nothing wrong with keeping it simple, but it isn't necessary to code workarounds just for compatibility sake.
